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Scot: So for a while, I've been unsuccessfully trying to limit, or maybe even quit, my drinking. But it didn't really come together until a coworker and I were at a conference, and we started talking, and we started sharing similar concerns about drinking. And then he did something that changed it all for me.

This is "Who Cares About Men's Health," with information, inspiration, and a different interpretation of men's health, and a show that we have long contended that good things happen when men talk to each other about their health and their concerns, which we don't do enough. That's what we try to model on this podcast. And that conversation that I had with that coworker definitely is case in point to that. It just proves that point.

My name is Scot. I bring the BS. The MD to my BS, Dr. John Smith.

Dr. Smith: Good afternoon.

Scot: He's a "cares about his health" convert now, Producer Mitch is on the show.

Mitch: Hey, there.

Scot: And my coworker and a guy I consider a friend, who has completely changed my trajectory with drinking and alcohol, Nick. Welcome to the podcast.

Nick: Thanks for having me today.

Scot: Did you know that you had such a profound impact on me? This conference was two or three months ago. It was November, and I don't know that we've really talked since then.

Nick: Yeah, I think I knew I had some impact, Scot, but not so profound. I'm excited to dig in.

Scot: What was that thing that changed it all? It was the conversation that we had. It reaffirmed that my concerns about my alcohol consumption were legit. It was great hearing somebody else's concerns. It really kind of legitimized it, right? It made it real, and it was great to hear somebody else struggled with it.

The thing that he did was he brought two non-alcoholic beers with him to the after-party at the conference and shared those with me. He gave those to me. And the thing that's changed my relationship with alcohol and my consumption is better-tasting NA beer.

I think the first thing that shocked me was that there were decent-tasting options out there. I mean, I've had NA beer before, and it's always tasted like crap. But the stuff Nick brought was really, really good.

And Mitch, you've had some experience with this too, haven't you?

Mitch: Yeah. So a lot of my friends from some of the punk scene when I was a little bit younger, a lot of them have gone sober, and so NA beers and spirits as well. So they'll do an NA . . . One of them is a big fan of the NA whiskey that they put in everything, and it's just kind of interesting. They get a little older, and it's time to rein it in a little bit. And so that was my exposure to it initially.

Scot: Yeah. How did you get introduced to this decent-tasting stuff, Nick?

Nick: I kind of discovered it on my own, really looking for it in the grocery store. I have dabbled in the NA spirits as well, although I've found you've got to go to a big store, and you're probably going to spend a lot of money. Shocker, non-alcoholic beverages often cost the same as alcoholic beverages. But yeah, really searching it out on the shelves and seeing the selection expand over the last few years.

Scot: Right. I had no idea. The stuff that I used to drink was just not great at all, and now there are actually some really decent options. And just you bringing those to the conference and saying, "Hey, Scot, I'd like to share this with you," was just really profound.

So Nick, let's talk about your relationship with alcohol. What was it that made you seek out these non-alcoholic options and maybe consider wanting to limit or eliminate your drinking?

Nick: Yeah. I think, really, in the last few years, it was just an accumulation of almost 20 years of drinking. I grew up in Florida. I grew up in a culture kind of surrounded by drinking. Drinking was the norm. Drinking was what everybody did in social settings, at the beach, on a fishing boat. You name it, there was an opportunity to drink during it. And that's the culture I grew up in.

In high school, a lot of parties on the weekend. In college, I was a bartender. So not only was I working in an environment where drinking happened, but after work, I was doing it as well. It was just kind of the culture that I grew up in.

And over time, I started to think, "Is this really what I have ahead of me for the rest of my life?" I saw a lot of older people that I knew in my life continuing to drink, suffer some health consequences from it.

Ultimately, I tried a couple of times maybe three, four years ago, and then about a year and a half ago, I had a really good friend who passed away from ill effects of drinking. And that really was a huge wake-up call to me.

Never drank as much as he did or the volume that he did, but when I was with him, I tried to keep up with him in that social setting. And so I kind of saw the writing on the wall. "This could be me. It could be other people I know. It could be other people I love in my life."

And so that was really the kicker for me that told me, "Okay, I've got to figure out how to stop doing this." That's when I really dove in and said, "All right. I'm done drinking. How do I replace what I've been doing, in many cases, every day of my life with another substance that is enjoyable, tasty, available," that's a big part of it, "and kind of gives you the same sort of feeling as having a beer with your buddies does?"

Dr. Smith: Interesting.

Scot:Yeah, was it the taste of it that you were afraid you were going to miss? Was it the habitual ritual part of it? What was it that you thought you needed to have? Water wasn't going to cut it? Crystal Light wasn't going to cut it?

Nick: Definitely the ritual, I think, for sure. Even now, a year and a half, coming up on two years completely sober, 5:00 comes along, and you've had a long day, you're stressed, you had to deal with a bunch of stuff. I've got two kids. The kids are stressing you out, and you're like, "Man, I just want to have a beer."

Really, the ritual, I think, was the biggest thing. I needed to have some kind of ritual in that time, in those interactions that I would have with my friends on the weekends, to carry me through.

And literally, having a beer at the end of the day, sharing a beer with somebody, cracking that beer open, hearing that satisfying sound, taking that sip. Having it taste good is important, because if it's not tasting good, it's not going to be the same.

And I do think that having an NA beer with somebody who's drinking an alcoholic beer is a totally different context than having a soda with someone having a beer. Because there's inevitably a barrier.

A lot of times, I can go to a bar and order an NA beer and drink that beer with someone, and they're never the wiser that I'm having an NA beer and they're having an "A beer," we'll call it, because the ritual is the same.

So that really, I think, was the most important part for me, was having something to replace that ritual and carry me through those regular social interactions that I still had.

Dr. Smith: So Nick, I've got a question for you from a perspective here. You saw the negative consequences in these other people. Back when you were drinking alcoholic beverages, would you consider yourself an alcoholic?

Nick: That's a great question, one that I thought about a lot. Maybe I was a little too scared to answer. I definitely drank on a regular basis, two to three drinks a night. I would talk to my doctor about it when I'd go for a checkup, and they'd say, "That's not terrible. Do you ever binge drink? Do you ever have five to seven?" "Yeah, sometimes."

Definitely, as I got older and had kids, those five to seven or those binge drinking opportunities were much fewer and farther between, but they still occurred, and they still occurred a few times a year. The hangovers after those would be more and more brutal and more and more unenjoyable.

And so it was a question that I had grappled with and thought about, but maybe had been a little afraid to answer. And I thought, "If I do this, if I take this action, I don't have to keep wondering about that question. And I don't have to continue to say, if somebody outside of my life, my parent or sibling or friend . . ." I now know the answer to that question: I think I was.

Dr. Smith: That's fair. I grew up, my parents were divorced. My father was an alcoholic, and that was the reason that they split. And so I've grown up in and around alcohol, and that's one of the reasons I've made the decision in my life not to drink alcohol. One of the many.

And so I'm always curious, because I have a lot of friends . . . When I was in medical school, we had classes where we would talk about alcoholism and things like that. They would bring up the definition of alcohol, and everyone would kind of chuckle and look around because that was what everybody was doing on the weekend, was exactly what we were defining as alcoholism.

And so I wonder . . . you see the effects, and you talked about the quantities that this friend consumed and things like that. But I think it's interesting to be self-introspective and really look at ourselves in that way. I think it's cool to hear you be open and really honest about it, because that's a hard one to do.

And I think that's one of the things in my family that's kept a lot of the people with alcoholism running, is the fact that they don't want to admit they have a problem.

Scot: I'm totally with you, Nick. I struggled with that question as well, especially when I found out what medically the definition of an alcoholic was. It's not as much drinking as you think. I think, for a man, it's like two beverages, right?

Dr. Smith: Two drinks, yeah. Average of 14 drinks a week, two drinks a day. Anything in excess of that, you kind of get in that territory.

Scot: Right. And a drink would be a beer, or a drink would be an ounce of whiskey, or four ounces of wine. Two ounces of wine? What is it?

Dr. Smith: A five-ounce glass.

Scot: It's not that much, right? And then you throw on top of that definition, Dr. Smith, if I understand correctly, the binge drinking is part of it as well. So even if you're not touching it during the week, if you're binge drinking on a Saturday or Sunday . . . Friday or Saturday, I guess. Sunday if you're not working.

Dr. Smith: Saturday and Sunday's fine too. There are Monday hangovers out there, Scot. Come on.

Scot: I mean, if you're doing that once a week, that's almost worse from what I've heard. Is that true, or is that not even worth debating? It's just not good for you.

Dr. Smith: I think the interesting thing about alcohol if you look at what alcohol does to the body . . . and I know this is not the focus of what we're doing, but binge drinking actually can give you more cravings and make you a little bit more after the alcohol than having a couple drinks a day. And also, your hangovers tend to be worse. So when you mentioned that, I was like, "That's how the body and the brain actually work."

But it's interesting. I'll give you the 10-second spiel, and then I'll shut up and let you guys talk about the good stuff of how we get to be better with our consumption.

Initially, when you start drinking alcohol, there's a dopamine release. And the dopamine is the thing that keeps you coming back. But after you drink a little bit more and a little bit more, you don't get there, but people tend to try to chase that sensation again.

The sad thing is you never really get there again, unfortunately, because of the way your body processes the alcohol and the way that alcohol actually acts as a poison as your body breaks it down that makes you inebriated.

And so it's kind of interesting, because you won't ever get that sensation of when you first started drinking again. That's what I think leads people to kind of chase that.

Scot: Yeah, and drink probably a lot more than they should.

Mitch: So when I hear about that dopamine, it really makes me think back to my college days. I was a wild man and definitely an alcoholic by the terms of everything.

There is something about in college . . . I mean, I was part of a group called Team Shit Show where we'd go to bars and get trashed.

Scot: Wow.

Mitch: I would throw these big ragers at our just-barely-off-campus apartment called Fort Awesome. And we were known for our jungle juice fountains that we would have at these events.

There was something about . . . Looking back, it was everything from dealing with untreated anxiety. Something I've learned kind of recently, doing some odds-and-ends interviews and stuff with people who are addiction specialists, they talk about people with untreated ADHD looking for those high-dopamine activities, the bizarre, the intense, the substances.

And so when I heard John talking about the dopamine hit, I was definitely looking for that.

Scot: Right. And I'd imagine not only would the alcohol release it, but then the social interactions that would happen would also release that.

Mitch: Yeah. It is interesting because` I think I was that person who was kind of pushing people to drink, to go. It was always, "What are we having?" Drinking with a capital D, etc. And it's not until I'm on this side of 30 that I look back, and I'm like, "Oh, man, there was definitely something going on."

Scot: Yeah. I was a drinker ever since I turned 21. I was in radio at the time, and that was a culture that we'd go out and drink and hang a lot, right? And then that just kind of continued.

It was almost to the point, too, where I've had a couple people in my life say I was their drinking mentor. I certainly had a drinking mentor, and I'm not proud of that, that I was somebody's drinking mentor.

But as I got older and older, I started noticing some physical issues. After I drank, my stomach would be upset, and going to the bathroom wasn't much fun the next day. Or as I got older, I noticed the next day not so much hangovers, but just being anxious, this anxiety. I noticed that my concentration was starting to decrease. I felt like I was tired all the time.

And I wasn't sure if alcohol was the cause of that because, as we know on this podcast, there are a lot of things that can contribute to all of that. But I certainly knew enough to know it could be contributing. So those were some of the reasons why I wanted to switch things around.

Then the other thing was . . . I've had grandparents that have smoked their whole lives, and none of them died because of lung cancer. So I know, if I was a smoker, what my genetics can handle. We know the genetic component is also part of "How are you going to react to these substances?" But nobody in my family drank. So I started getting a little afraid, like, "What am I doing to my liver? Am I causing permanent damage?"

So after NA beer, how did that change your relationship with alcohol?

Nick: For me, it was really a . . . I had tried to quit a couple times, and I honestly can't remember in those times that I had tried to quit whether I drank a lot of NA. I think I was maybe trying to avoid it, avoid the taste, and avoid the social interaction. That didn't work for me.

But when I made this decision "I've got to quit drinking, I'm just going to do it, I've got to go for it," the next day, I'm like, "Okay, what are my NA options now? What do I have? Oh my gosh, there's an IPA, and there's a hazy IPA, and there's a golden ale, and there's a cocktail, an NA cocktail." I've discovered those are really good.

Then it became fun. And to use John's words, maybe I even got a little hit of dopamine from that, in the chase or the pursuit of something new. And then it became exciting to me, like, "Oh, I'm going to go to this grocery store because this one has a better selection."

And the story that Scot started it off with, what I'll say . . . This might sound like the kind of thing that an alcoholic might say if you were talking about alcoholic beer. When you go to a conference and the day ends, and there's the hotel happy hour, there are two options. There are like two beers and two wines, right? And most people are like, "Well, I'll drink whatever they have."

I learned pretty quickly there are no NA options there, so if I want to have an NA beer, I've got to bring my own. That's what I did at this conference with Scot. I had brought my own 12-pack of NA beer, knowing that I wouldn't be able to find it in these hotel functions, and said at the end of our workday, "Hey Scot, you want to have one?"

So I was thinking ahead to sort of make sure that I had what I needed to stay away from alcohol, drink the thing that I knew I could rely on to sort of get through those social interactions successfully.

I was thinking two steps ahead, like Mitch and his friends back in college might have for how they might prepare for particular situations, right?

But again, it became a thing that could be exciting to me. It became a thing where I could share this with someone like Scot, who was open with it, or I could go to a fancy bar and say, "I bet they've got some really great mocktails." I try not to use that term. It feels a little weird to me, the mocktail thing.

But just a good non-alcoholic drink, that can take a million different forms: beer, NA whiskey, coffee drinks that can be really good. It just opens up this whole other world of enjoyable, tasty flavors, all that stuff that you can still be excited about pursuing, while leaving all the negative ramifications of alcohol that John told us about behind.

Scot: I've got to say, at the conference, I was really excited, but I was a little skeptical. I was afraid . . . I was thinking, "Oh, am I going to be able to interact socially?" For a lot of us, alcohol might lower some of those inhibitions, right? I'm a little uptight at times, sometimes have difficulty talking to people. I know, it's funny. That's what I do for a living, but sometimes, in real-life situations, I do.

I don't know. There was something about the bonding experience of having something that looked like an alcoholic beverage when other people were enjoying it, that tasted like something that I had good memories of. I mean, I will admit, I've had some good memories of times when I drank. I've had fun. But then not getting drunk.

Although I felt drunk, which was really, really weird. After a couple of them, I thought I was staggering, and I felt like I was even kind of talking and acting a little bit like I was drunk. So I don't know what that was all about.

Any idea on that, Dr. Smith?

Dr. Smith: I mean, placebo is a hell of a drug if you think about what it can do. The extra 10 seconds on that is some of these non-alcoholic beers have up to . . . I think it's 0.5% alcohol. They actually did some studies where they looked at some of these beers, and some of them actually had a little bit higher content than they may have suggested on the label.

So there may have been your body wanting to have that, where there was a little bit of alcohol that was getting broken down as well. So those are both feasible options.

Scot: Anyway, it just really changed. And then when I came back home, Nick, I immediately went to the grocery store when I found out that this type of beer that you bought, which I really liked, was at the grocery store. I went and got it, and I started drinking that.

What I loved was . . . it was like you mentioned, the ritual at the end of the day, or if I wanted to go downstairs and just crack a couple on a Friday night. I don't think it was so much, for me, about the alcohol as it is about the ritual, and just shutting things down and maybe sitting in front of the TV, or hanging out with my dogs, or hanging out on my back porch.

And then to have that taste that I had good associations with. I know this sounds like something an alcoholic would say, but I think I actually drank it for the taste. I think that was a big part of why I drank beer. I enjoy it more than other beverages. And when it tastes just as good without the alcohol, or with the limited amount of alcohol, then it's a viable thing for me.

Mitch: Yeah. For me, my relationship with the non-alcohol options, or even I've heard "spirit-free cocktail," which is kind of this goofier name for a mocktail. But what I find interesting, for me at least, was that I kind of started cutting back on drinking when I started getting a little older.

When I hit my 30s, I found myself having the worst hangovers that I have ever experienced in my entire life. And when I got health insurance again, they started to say, "Hey, we should probably watch that liver. There are some elevated levels of one thing or another." And I'm like, "Okay, let's do that."

And then it was actually getting mental health treatment, of all things, that has actually made it so I'm not searching for that alcohol like I used to be, or those substances, period, whether it be smoking or whatever.

There's something about having my anxiety treated, the medications that I'm on to kind of manage my ADHD, that makes it so I don't crave it like I used to. I'll still have a nice little snifter of bourbon at the end of the week just as a ritual, but it's not like I used to be in any stretch of the imagination.

And it doesn't hurt that some of the medications that I'm on don't let me have alcohol. It interferes with it, and it really can mess you up if you're not being careful with it.

And so, yeah, the non-alcoholic options have become an ability for me to still have connections with some of my old drinking buddies, some of my old people from concerts that I used to go to, etc., but not having to have any of the bad effects that I have in my own life. And it's not like I'm searching out for those dopamine hits like I used to be.

Scot: Let's transition, though. I think we might have made it sound like, "Wow, this is . . ." For me, it really was. In my life, how many truly earth-shattering, fundamentally changing things are there that happen to us that when we do it, it's like, "Wow, this is a game changer"? Not often. We look for those, and that's why a lot of people make a lot of money on health products, because they know we're looking for those.

But really, this conversation and NA beer has made a huge difference for me, but it might not be for everybody. Dr. Smith, I'd like you to talk a little bit about that.

Dr. Smith: I will disclaim non-alcoholic beer, a lot of it still has some alcohol in it. There's no safe level of alcohol in pregnancy. So any female listeners out there, that would be one thing that I would always caution people about.

Scot: Or wine. I mean, there's that, right?

Dr. Smith: Yeah, the wine, spirits, things like that. Because there always is a little bit, there's no safe level in pregnancy. That would be the one disclaimer that I would put out there on this show, to be smart that way.

But I think the literature shows that it can be beneficial. However, I think it is an individual decision. I mean, we've got two folks here who have made that decision, and Nick influenced Scot.

But I think for Nick . . . I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, Nick, but it sounds like it's been a game changer for you.

Nick: Yeah, definitely. It has been, I think, for maintaining the social interactions and maintaining . . . Now I have a really good friend who had really problematic drinking over a long time, hard quit, and does not have any interest, doesn't want to touch it. He doesn't want to be reminded of the taste of beer or alcohol. He doesn't want to go to a bar. I don't know exactly, but I think there's even some kind of shot he takes where a sip of alcohol will instantly create a really negative physical response.

And so, for him, it's not an option, right? It's not something that's even in his wheelhouse to consider. So I think you're right, John, case by case, everybody is different.

And I love hearing about Scot finding this sort of transformative discovery of NA beverages and then a few months later, being like, "Maybe I don't even need those." I think that's a huge individual step that's different for each of us.

Dr. Smith: Yeah. And I think for your buddy, smelling a non-alcoholic beer might trigger a relapse for him.

Nick: Exactly.

Dr. Smith: There's one that we looked at for show prep, the dangers of drinking non-alcoholic beer. And for some people, that is a danger.

Scot: Hey, Nick, I will say one thing. I feel as though I grew a little closer to you after this NA, because at the conference for the next couple of days, you'd supply me with NA, and I started referring to you as my brother in sobriety.

Other people started picking up on it, and I was really shocked. It used to be we lived in a society where if you weren't drinking, somebody would be like, "Well, what's wrong with you?" That was the default bad behavior. "What's your problem that you're not drinking?"

But I felt not only closer to you and a bond, because we were kind of brothers in sobriety, we were still trying to enjoy life and have fun, but other people, when they found out, were pretty open to it. And I really appreciated that.

So you might be surprised, with the people in your life, how they might be open to it in a way differently than before.

Nick: It creates new opportunities to make community. Would we have still bonded as much as we did if it weren't for the NAs? I don't know. Because the way you describe it is this communal offering that I gave you. I didn't think that much through it at the time. I just wanted to be nice and share, but it does.

Scot and I, one night of that conference, we led a group of 12 coworkers at 11:00 at night to a random karaoke, divey place. And I went into that thinking, "Oh, am I going to be able to have fun and sing and dance and make a fool of myself in front of all these people that I don't know without the benefit of alcohol?" And I think we still did a pretty good job, Scot. We had a good time.

Scot: We did.

Nick: And people talked about how good of a time we had the next day without the hangover and without the, "Oh my gosh, did I say something I shouldn't have in front of my boss while I was there?"

So that's a huge win to me, to be in that kind of communal setting with someone you've bonded with, making new connections with new people, and showing them that we could still have fun even if we're drinking NA beer.

Scot: I know I said we're going to wrap it up, but that story reminded me. I sang karaoke for the first time in my life that night, guys. First time in my life.

Mitch: Sober?

Nick: Shocking.

Scot: Stone cold sober.

Mitch: Wow.

Scot: And it took me the whole night to get to the point where I could do that.

Nick: Yeah. I'm the same.

Scot: And a lot of that was reflecting on my identity, reflecting on my discomfort in earlier situations because I was drinking NA and I wasn't allowing myself to have alcohol bring down the inhibitions, thinking about what kind of person I want to be. Do I want to be the kind of person that has fun? Do I have to depend on a substance to get me there?

And it was so much more rewarding when I finally just thought, "You know what? It's going to be fun. I'm going to regret not doing it. Nobody is going to care." And I did it sober, which makes it my decision. It was awesome. But it was a lot of discomfort to get to that point, which I think was worth going through.

Mitch: I need to ask what song? What song did you do for your first karaoke?

Scot: "Blister in the Sun" by Violent Femmes.

Mitch: Nice.

Nick: It was beautiful, Mitch. Beautiful.

Mitch: That is a good choice. That is a really good choice.

Scot: Well, there is an art to picking a good karaoke song when you're a crap singer.

Mitch: Yeah, true that.

Dr. Smith: "Tequila" is a great one for that if you're a bad singer.

Scot: Right? Because all you have to do is "Tequila."

All right. Let's wrap this up. Final thoughts/reflections. Let's go to Mitch first.

Mitch: So for me, I am going to keep doing what I'm doing. And I love that karaoke story. There have been parts of my life in my past that I didn't think I would get to do because I was too old or I don't drink anymore, etc. And it's like, "Well, why not?" If I have a better sense of myself in my identity, why not go and do those things? I don't have to do it with drinking.

Scot: Right. Dr. Smith, did this conversation change how you would interact with patients, do you think, or . . .

Dr. Smith: I mean, I'm pretty direct with patients, and I take an approach of "there's no one thing that works." And I think this cements the things like, "Hey, man, not everything works for everybody, but this works for you. And so here's another option."

And so I think if I had a patient come to me and said, "Hey, I think I have a drinking problem," I would have that conversation with them and say, "Hey, you may be the guy that non-alcoholic beer is the thing, and you may be the guy that can't smell it. I don't know who you're going to be. You need to figure that out. But here are some options."

I think another great thing is this gives me a lot of leeway to tell people, "Hey, you can be yourself, and it's okay to be yourself." And I think that's one of the coolest things that I learned from you guys today. I learned that being myself was enough in that moment to sing karaoke, to do those things.

You grow up thinking, "Well, that'd be embarrassing." And it's like, "Dude, you've ben embarrassing yourself for a long time sober and not sober." I think it's realizing that, "Hey, being yourself is good enough and a lot of fun too."

I heard Nick say in high school. It starts in high school, where kids start to have a little bit here and a little bit there, and they lose their inhibitions, and you don't realize that it's cool to be Scot. It's cool to be Nick. It's cool to be Mitch. It's cool to be John, no matter what that means.

To me, that's what I caught out of those last few minutes that I just loved. It's cool to be yourself, man, and to be you and let other people see you. And there's nothing wrong with that. I love that. You don't need a substance to be yourself. I think that's one of the coolest things. And so, for me, I love it.

Scot: You don't need a substance to be yourself. That's like a t-shirt, man.

Nick, final thoughts?

Nick: Really glad we brought up the karaoke story because it took us in the best possible direction. But then I think two things for me. One, I commend Mitch for having a lot of these realizations in his 30s because it took me a little longer, almost to 40. And I have a couple of kids.

Scot: It took me even longer, guys.

Nick: Yeah. I have a couple of kids, and I try to think about, "What example am I setting for my kids?" And the older one probably remembers me drinking and probably remembers encounters with me when I was drunk, and the younger one doesn't. That's important to me that I continue to set that standard and set that model for my kids.

And the second thing is I remember the first few months of my sobriety journey, I would tell people, or I would think to myself, "I'm not saying that I'm never going to drink again, because I'm not a black-and-white person in that sense."

But the longer I go, and the further down the road I go with this journey, and the more we share experiences like this, the more I think, "Why would I ever need to drink alcohol again when I can be myself, deepen my connections with the friends that I have, meet new friends in social settings without having to have alcohol, and really embody what John said, to be yourself without having to have a substance?"

Scot: I feel good about who I am right now. I brewed beer for 15 years, guys. Beer was a big part of my identity. So to formulate this new identity, I'm really enjoying it, and it's been very rewarding to me.

As I wrap up, Nick, I just want to say thank you. I don't know why you decided to share those with me. I was reluctant to even take them from you because I knew you only had a certain number.

But it truly was a transformative moment in my life, you taking the simple act of sharing your story with alcohol, which allowed me to feel comfortable sharing mine and going, "Wow, there's somebody else that feels this way," and then going a step further and saying, "Hey, I can bring a couple NA beers if you'd like."

I was ready to probably just do what I always did at that conference. And had I done what I always did, I would not be in a place where I am now, which is actually a pretty good place to be. So I just wanted to say a heartfelt thank you, Nick.

Nick: Thank you, Scot. That means a lot to me. And I think it just reinforces how important it is to be open and share our stories and talk about what we're going through because you're probably always going to find somebody who that resonates with.

So thank you, Scot. Thank you, Mitch. Thank you, John, for sharing your stories as well today.

Scot: If you have a story you'd like to share, or something resonated with you and you'd like to tell us about it, we'd love to hear what you have to say. You can email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

Thanks for listening, and thanks for caring about men's health.